CAMLAN AS A FOLK RELOCATION OF THE DALRIADAN ARTUR'S MIATHI BATTLE SITE

Maes-y-Camlan at Dinas Mawddwy

Afon Gamlan Tributary of Afon Mawddach

(with Dinas Mawddwy indicated by arrow)

In recent weeks I had a number of revelations or epiphanies concerning the very realy possibility that several of the Arthurian battles in the HISTORIA BRITTONUM list preserve a folk memory not of a Dark Age British Arthur, but of the Roman officer L. Artorius Castus.  

Only one piece of data does not correlate with this picture: the ANNALES CAMBRIAE entry for c. 537 A.D., which has an Arthur and a Medraut falling at Camlan. 

What to do with this entry?  Superficially, it would appear to lend credibility to the notion that a Dark Age British Arthur had existed.  

Well, to begin with, the date is rather easily disposed of.  It could quite easily be a manufactured date, made necessary when Arthur, the preeminent British hero, became attached in legend to the famous Battle of Badon, which was fought c. 516.  Ther e are a great many scholars of the period who have grave doubts about Arthur fighting at Badon.  Most, in fact, think the battle was assigned to him precisely because he was convenient.

But simply proposing that the date has been altered does not help us much with Camlan itself.  Medraut is an unknown entity.  I long ago proposed that the name (based on the Cornish form Modred) represented L. Moderatus. Oliver Padel agreed with me.  But early on Sir Ifor Williams suggested that the name might be connected with the Welsh verb medru ‘to be able, to hit’; but he did not develop the idea, only mentioning it in passing.  John Koch (in his CELTIC CULTURE) says Modred should be derived from the Celtic stem *m\tr- ‘mother’. 

In any case, the name is unknown outside of much later Welsh tradition and subsequent Arthurian romance.

I had long ago shown exactly where the Welsh themselves placed Camlan.[1] This was the Afon Gamlan, a trinbutary of the Mawddach (see maps at top of this blog post).

The other day I happened to take another look at the geography surrounding Welsh Camlan and I noticed something I'd missed before:  a Maes-y-Camlan at Dinas Mawddwy.  So what I had was the curious coincidence of two Camlans at a Mawdd- place-name.

Mawdd is found nowhere else in Wales, and the name has proven impenetrable to the Welsh place-name experts.  I decided to tackle it anew, with the help of Brythonic place-name specialist Alan James.  When I approached James on the subject, he responded as follows:

"I have to quote Wyn Owen and Morgan: 'There is considerable confusion arising from the identity of two closely related rivers, one of which is a tributary of the other. Mawdd (which may well have been a pers. n. originally) features in the names of both rivers. The larger of the two was simply Mawdd (Maviae 13th ct, Maw River 1536-9, Auon uaue 1578 ...) It ... flows into the sea at Abermawdd/ Barmouth. Later it seems to have become Mawddu [Black Maw?; see more from James below] and then changing to the suffix -wy common in river-names ... ' So the river only becomes Mawddwy in early modern times - Mothuaye 1602 is the earliest evidence.

As the name for the territory around the river Mawdd, a suffixed form is evidenced from the 13thct., Mautho 1232 etc., where -wy denotes either the territory around the Mawdd, or belonging to an individual called Mawdd. That's the case at Dinas Mawddwy, and also Llanmawddwy - but, again, the personal name involved is Mawdd, not Mawddwy.

Meanwhile, the tributary stream was called Mawddach, 'little Mawdd', with the diminutive suffix -ach. But, quoting again, 'Consequently, because of this ambiguity (of river and territory),the major river adopted the name of its tributary ... while the original Mawddach was renamed Wnion'."

I could find nothing in Welsh for Mawdd, but knowing as I did that Wales was heavily impacted by Irish raids and settlement, I wondered about an Irish borrowing or even an otherwise unknown Welsh cognate of an Irish word.  And, as it happens, during the course of my search I found such a word.

From the Electronic Dictionary of the Irish Language:

mogda

Cite this: eDIL s.v. mogda or dil.ie/32449

adj io, iā (= O.Ir. mogthae?) big, great , immense? matud mógda merda (of Goliath), SR 5753. ruc leis methil mogda móir `a band of labourers, big and brawny', Metr. Dinds. iii 380.9 . sin Temraig m.¤ , LL 128b47 (` spacious ', MacCarthy 188.7 ). is m.¤ allmarda in tuarascbail stupendous and strange (?), LL 268a6 = MU 40.5 (` servile '). manip do Chonchobar berthair | is derb bid m.¤ in gnim (i.e. the consequences will be terrible), IT i 98.3 . Cf. in menma mogha nó in menma mor. Moga mor mar sin, O'Dav. 93. See magda.

magda

Cite this: eDIL s.v. magda or dil.ie/31282

 

Forms: maghda

adj io, iā. great , vast (cf. mag-)? cath Átha Medoin magdai, LL 183a14 = `of the plains' (?), Arch. Hib. ii 61 § 34. cath Murbuilg magda mōrgais, LL 7a17 = maghda `of plains', Leb. Gab.(i) i 102. in múir masmóir magdai muaid (: Dagdai) `of the fair great vast and noble wall', Metr. Dinds. iv 96. ardurdaig Mhuman magda, Lism. L. 3473. Cf. mogda (perhaps same word).

Professor Jurgen Uhlich helped with the early formation of these words, putting them into the earliest hypothetical reconstructions in Irish for me:

"The etymological starting point is the IE root *mag-. The suffix is Old Irish -d(a)e. So magdae < *mago-dii̯os/-dii̯ā/-dii̯om. No such reconstruction for mogdae, that is simply magdae with its a secondarily changed to o – an analogical process that, needless to say, does not make it in any way ‘wrong’."

When I pitched this to James, he responded:

"Yes, I think either of those could be cognate with Mawdd, and the shared root the basis for an early name, quite possibly applying to the whole river basin and the main watercourses within it."

As the river-name originally occurs as Mawdd, and the Mawddwy names come later, this must be due to a regional suffix being applied. If we originally had Mawddwy, not Mawdd, then we would have the river suffix.

That may (and probably is!) an over-simplification, of course.  When I asked James about that, he replied:

"Essentially, yes.

However, thinking about it further, and studying the evidence of the medieval records and the map, my very tentative view is that the estuary, the valleys draining into it, and the surrounding hills, comprise what might well have been an Iron-Age chieftain's territory, with resources of arable, pasture, meadow, woodland etc. adequate to maintain a largely self-sufficient community with its chief and his retinue - similar in scale and character to the Fleet Valley where I live in Galloway. 

And I'd hazard that *Magda or similar might have been either the early name for the main watercourse (in its upper reaches, either or both of the Mawddach and Wnion), and *Magd-owja or similar could have been a name for such a chieftain's territory, becoming the territorial name Mawddwy. Because of the similarity to other river-names, that name eventually got transferred to the river, though not before what was perceived as the main branch had become *Maw[dd] ddu, 'Black Maw'.

That is, of course, very speculative, but might offer a possible scenario." 

According to the ultimate Welsh place-name expert, Melville Richards

 (in https://www.jstor.org/stable/25509590), "tribal names are found with a suffix in -wy which may denote the tribal area or centre."  If we choose to interpret Mawddwy as such a tribal area, the meaning of the word semantically matches a very significant tribal name in Scotland.  The following is from Rivet and Smith's treatment of MAEATAE in their THE PLACE-NAMES OF ROMAN BRITAIN:

"DERIVATION. Holder II. 388 thought the name Pictish, and it is discussed by Wainwright PP 51-52; it may survive in Dumyat and Myot Hill, near Stirling and thus north of the Antonine Wall. Watson CPNS 58 seems to take the name as wholly Celtic, as is surely right in view of the Continental analogues he cites for the second element or suffix : Gaulish Gais-atai 'spearmen' (*gaison 'spear'), Gal-atai 'warriors' (*gal 'valour, prowess'), Nantu-atai (-ates) 'valley-dwellers'; he notes also the presence in Ireland of the Magn-atai. See also ATREBATES, with further references. One might therefore conjecture that in this name at least the force of the suffix is 'those of. . . '. The first element might be the same as in Maia, probably 'larger', in which case a sense 'larger people' or more strictly 'people of the larger part' may be suitable. It is to be noted that Cassius Dio, as quoted by others, seems to say that Britain north of the Antonine Wall was divided between the Calidonii and the Maeatae, these having subsumed lesser tribes, and it could well be that the Maeatae were the 'people of the larger part'. The name was still in use in Adamnan's day : Miathi in his Life of St Columba, I, 8."

From their treatment of MAIA:

"R&C suggests that the base of the name is British *maios, comparative of *maros (compare Latin maior), from which Welsh mwy derives; Jackson LHEB 357 and 360 appears to accept this. The sense is therefore 'larger (one or ones)', perhaps referring to the size of promontories (Bowness contrasted with Drumburgh). If the name is basically adjectival, it is easy to see how in differing interpretations it could be singular or plural, as the sources appear to show. The root is represented in personal names in Gaul such as Maiagnus, Maianus, Maiiona for *Magiona (Holder II. 387), perhaps Maiorix; in Gaul and Italy a goddess Maia was known. The only relevant place-names abroad seem to be Maio Meduaco between Brenta Vecchia and Brentella in N. Italy, and the Statio Maiensis mentioned under Magis. The North British Maeatae people may have a first element in their name corresponding to the present name."

For a more detailed discussion of the Proto-Celtic involved, I have culled the following for two excellent resources:

larger *mājos-, SEMANTIC CLASS: measure, Gaulish meion (?) ‘larger, more’, Early Irish máa, mó ‘larger’, Scottish Gaelic mò ‘greater’, Welsh mwy ‘bigger, larger, greater, more, louder, longer, further; any more, any longer, again, henceforth, henceforward, from now on, after this, from then on, after that’, Cornish moy ‘larger, more’, Breton mui (Old Breton), muy (Middle Breton), mui ‘larger, more’

increase *mag-e/o-, SEMANTIC CLASS: action, Gaulish Magalos ‘(?)’

English–Proto-Celtic Word-list

with attested comparanda

*magyo- 'great' [Adj]

GOlD: Mlr. maige [io]

GAUL: Magios [PN]

PIE: *megh2- 'great' (IEW: 709)

COGN: Lat. maius

ETYM: Mlr. maige is a rare, poetic word.

REF: LEIA M-10, Delamarre 213, Meid 2005: 197f.

*mliro- 'great' [Adj]

GOlD: Olr. mar, mor [0]

W: OW maur, MW mawr

BRET: OBret. mor, MoBret. meur

CO: OCo. maur gl. magnus, MCo. mur

GAUL: -maros (in PN, e.g. Iantumarus)

LEP: Latu-marui [PN] (Ornavasso)

PIE: *meh,-, *moh,-ro- 'great' (IEW: 704)

COGN: OHG miiri 'news; known, famous, great', Gr. -moros (in

compounds)

ETYM: All Celtic forms (and Gr. -moros) can be derived from *moh,-ro-,

while the e-grade is attested in other languages. The PCelt. comparative and

superlative of this adjective were suppletive. The comparative was *ma-yos-

(Olr. mo, mooMW mlry, Co. moy), and the superlative was *ma-samo- (Olr.

maam, moam). The Brittonic superlatives (OBret. meham, OW muihiam, Co.

moygha) were built with the productive suffix *-samo- added to the

comparative stem *may- ).

REF: LEIA M-18, GPC III: 2379, EIEC 344, DGVB 259, Falileyev 110,

Campanile 1974: 81, Lambert 1994: 28, 32, Delamarre 218, Solinas 1995:

375, Meid 2005: 92f.

Etymological Dictionary of Proto-Celtic By Ranko Matasovic

So what may we conclude from all that?

Well, I'm going to come right out and say it:

I believe the Camlan entry for Arthur (regardless of whom they thought Medraut was) is a folklore relocation of the death-place of the Dalriadan Artur in the territory of the Maeatae to Mawddwy in NW Wales, where there was a very similar tribal region designation.

If this is so, then it follows that our only remaining reason (our having already discounted Badon as belonging to Arthur) for adhering to the idea of the existence of a Dark Age British Arthur - that of the Camlan entry in the AC - has been effectively eliminated.  

All of the battle-site locations of the HISTORIA BRITTONUM, save that of Badon, can most easily be assigned to L. Artorius Castus, who as dux in command of three British legions fought the Maeatae and Caledonii confederations under Severus and Caracalla.  This would be in keeping with my newly proposed ARM.GENTES reading for the Castus's stone ARM[...]S lacuna.

In closing, I would add that Artur of Dalriada's involvement with the Miathi/Maeatae itself could be a confused memory of Castus' fighting against the same tribe in the Roman period.  Please see 

https://mistshadows.blogspot.com/2025/01/arthur-and-miathi-artorius-and-maeatae.html for more on this. 

The Dea Latis or Lake Goddess at Birdoswald  and 

Aballava/Avalana/"Avalon", which I've often discussed in the context of a possible Dark Age Arthur on the Wall was, of course, contemporary with Castus. 

The same is true of the Aballava fort itself. The Drumburgh fort or Concavata near Aballava bears a name which links it to a sort of grail 

(see https://mistshadows.blogspot.com/2024/12/a-new-theory-on-concavata-name-for.html). This was a Roman name and a Roman construction and would have been well-known to Castus.  Any Arthur of the 6th century would have been a Christian (see the Christian stone from the Camboglanna fort I was the first to properly translate: https://mistshadows.blogspot.com/2019/02/a-sub-roman-christian-inscribed-stone.html).

I will be publishing a post soon on the likely presence of Castus at Camboglanna.  

[1]

Camlan and the Grave of Osfran’s Son

The purpose of this essay is to prove, once and for all, where Arthur’s Camlann battle site was located. Or, more accurately, where Welsh tradition happens to place it!

It is fairly well known that the Welsh record seven survivors of Camlann. Yet, to my knowledge, no one has sought to plot these personages out on a map. To do so may help us pinpoint a geographical region in which Camlann was believed to be situated.

One of the seven – Geneid Hir – it a difficult and otherwise unknown name. P.C. Bartram (in “A Welsh Classical Dictionary: People in History and Legend up to about A.D. 1000) suggests the name may be corrupt and offers an unlikely identification with a personage named Eueyd or Euehyd Hir (often rendered Hefeydd). However, I would see in Geneid ‘Cannaid’, “white, bright, shining, pure, clean, radiant,” an epithet substituted for the original title Ceimiad, ‘Pilgrim’, of St. Elian. Elian had churches on Mon/Anglesey and in Rhos, Gwynedd.

Sandde Bryd Angel looks to be a pun for the Afon Angell, Aberangell, etc., places immediately to the south of the Camlan on the Afon Dyfi in Merionethshire.

Morfran son of Tegid is from Llyn Tegid, now Bala Lake in Gwynedd.

St. Cynfelyn is of Llancynfelyn in Ceredigion just below the Afon Dyfi.

St. Cedwyn of Llangedwyn in Powys, while somewhat further removed than the rest, is still in NW Wales.

St. Pedrog of Llanbedrog is on the Lleyn Peninsula in Gwynedd, just opposite the three Camlans in Merionethshire.

St. Derfel Gadarn is at Llandderfel near Bala Lake in Gwynedd.

Needless to say, if we “triangulate” with all these names/places, we find at the center the three Merionethshire Camlans.

So which one is the right one?

Only one way to know for sure: we must find the Camlann that is claimed as the gravesite of Osfran’s son. This reference comes from the ‘Stanzas of the Graves:’

Bet mab Ossvran yg Camlan,

Gvydi llauer kywlavan…

The grave of Osfran’s son is at Camlan,

After many a slaughter…

[“The Black Books of Carmarthen ‘Stanzas of the Graves’, Thomas Jones, Sir John Rhys Memorial Lecture, 1967, Critical Text and Translation.]

While –fran of Osfran looks like Bran or ‘Raven’, the Os- does not look at all right for a Welsh name. I suspected Ys- and after a first search failed, I defaulted to bryn or ‘hill’ as the original of –bran. Thus I was looking for an Ysbryn.

And I actually found him – or, rather, it! [See “An

Inventory of the Ancient Monuments in Wales  and Monmouthshire: VI – County of Merioneth”, p. 98, RCAHMW, 1921.]

On the Mawddach River in Merionethshire there is a Foel Ispri. It used to be Moel Ysbryn and was the legendary residence of Ysbryn Gawr or Ysbryn the Giant. If we go north on the Mawddach we run into its tributary the Afon Gamlan, i.e. the Water of the Crooked Bank.